Comments on Somtow's World: A few small clarifications

IMO..."Anonymous" is Dan Rivers and his ...

2010-05-24T15:30:59.585+07:00

IMO..."Anonymous" is Dan Rivers and his bruised ego.

@Anonymous: if it makes you happy, read my sentenc...

2010-05-22T17:31:05.890+07:00

@Anonymous: if it makes you happy, read my sentence as "yet another" rational person. I have known many rational people, but finding new rational people is still nice.

Robert If rational people are so few and far betwe...

2010-05-22T15:42:33.721+07:00

Robert If rational people are so few and far between possibly you need to reassess you idea of what rational is?

XinJeisan perhaps you could enlighten me as to what Roberts ideas are? It seemed to me that he was just interested in trying to discredit another posters contribution by using pseudo intellectual gobbledegook.

What did originally catch my attention in Robert’s first post was this: “If you allow yourself this kind of imprecision in language and reasoning” which seemed highly ironic.

Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with S P Somtow and in fact have never even met him.

@XinJeisan, well put, and thank you. Just knowing ...

2010-05-22T11:33:57.759+07:00

@XinJeisan, well put, and thank you. Just knowing that there is another rational person out there has made my day.

@Anonymous, I've done what I could to establish a dialog with you, but failed. For that, I am sorry. Since meaningful communication has proved impossible, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Robert Beverly doesn't seem to need any help d...

2010-05-22T04:48:39.214+07:00

Robert Beverly doesn't seem to need any help defending his ideas, but just to say he isn't alone:

@Anonymous

>Where does it accuse Somtow of "complicity in the
>deaths of Thai people"?

>>He is, in short, an apologist for a massacre.
>>And by doing so has blood on his hands.

That seems pretty clear to me that someone is accusing Somtow of being complicit of something.

Also, Somtow is Thai and American. He isn't "confused." You can be confused about what T-shirt to wear in the morning, or what to eat for dinner. But for someone who is comfortable in two cultures, it isn't called confusion, it's called being bicultural. A pretty normal state of affairs for a lot of people. The confusion comes from those who think identity is singular and fixed rather than plural and fluid.

There you go again Robert. I guess you just can...

2010-05-22T01:23:10.807+07:00

There you go again Robert. I guess you just can't help it.

Okay, you said "third paragraph describes "being Thai" and "being American" as values" but it doesn't say that. Then "In the next paragraph, you accuse him of complicity in the deaths of Thai people" - the next paragraph starts "Instead of attempting to protect". Where does it accuse Somtow of "complicity in the deaths of Thai people"?

"Rhetorically, it is more empowering to empathize from a position of strength than to refute from a position of weakness" is pure gobbledegook.

By the way, regarding the Dan Rivers video: Based ...

2010-05-21T22:43:02.895+07:00

By the way, regarding the Dan Rivers video:
Based on what I was able to see, I do not think the wounded Thai man or the reporter "should" have been shot. Whether they were being targeted or were victims of stray fire, I have no way of knowing. The use of force is a very unfortunate thing to come to. I hate it. But both sides were using force. There is video of the Thai army being fired on as well, and not just with firecrackers. Then there are all the burned buildings; I can only be thankful that no residential high-rises were burned. Also, I don't have any criticism of Dan Rivers (I haven't watched CNN enough to form an opinion one way or another). There, you have all my a priori's and can decide if you still want to criticize my language and reasoning.

@Anonymous Your criticism of my comment is vague. ...

2010-05-21T22:18:58.324+07:00

@Anonymous
Your criticism of my comment is vague. Saying it "makes little sense" provides no information about what you did or did not understand. The term "plain English" is ambiguous too. I think most English-speaking people who tried would understand me. However, to facilitate communication between us, I can recommend the following steps:

1. You may inform me of your preferred regional vernacular of the English language. I will do my best to conform.

2. If it suits you, you may specify a style guide. Examples include MLA, Chicago, APA, Strunk and White, etc. I can then use the guide of your choice to inform my writing and format any citations.

3. You may specify a maximum number of syllables. Please select an integer greater than or equal to one. If you select the number one, I will allow myself multiple syllables only for names and citations.

I hope this will help us to establish a meaningful dialog.

Robert your contribution makes little sense perhap...

2010-05-21T21:09:19.742+07:00

Robert your contribution makes little sense perhaps you could try again in plain English. The odd thing is you acuse the previous poster of "imprecision in language and reasoning"

@Anonamous detractor above: Re: "I would con...

2010-05-21T19:10:22.459+07:00

@Anonamous detractor above:

Re: "I would contend, based on Somtow's arguments, not only does he believe"

Message:
From where do you draw your conclusions? Are you able to shelve your anger long enough to carefully read another person's words and try to understand from their perspective?

Your third paragraph describes "being Thai" and "being American" as values, but they are not. They are cultural identities. Many people have more than one cultural identity, and I fail to see how that is bad or undesirable.

In the next paragraph, you accuse him of complicity in the deaths of Thai people, a conclusion you could not possibly have drawn from any of his writing here. If you disagree, please reference a specific line; the onus is on you, the accuser.

It won't be necessary for me to pick apart the rest of your statements. However, I want to tell you something that I hope you evaluate rationally. It is this: If you allow yourself this kind of imprecision in language and reasoning, you will be easy to enrage, easy to manipulate, and most likely live in the shadow of the will of others, whether you know it or not. I do not wish that fate on anyone.

Rhetorically, it is more empowering to empathize from a position of strength than to refute from a position of weakness. Best regards.

You just need to read the pro government / anti ou...

2010-05-21T16:56:37.272+07:00

You just need to read the pro government / anti outsider / anti red shirt / xenophobic comments here, twitter, facebook, boston.com to really fear for the people of Thailand.

Is it possible for Thailand to be introspective?

@ScottW I would contend, based on Somtow's ar...

2010-05-21T16:50:11.260+07:00

@ScottW

I would contend, based on Somtow's arguments, not only does he believe things like universal human rights are some kind of weird racist concoction but that such rights are a threat to the myth-building central to maintaining dominance by the Thai elite.

The biggest problem with this kind of moral relativism is that it cuts many ways. Intellectually, philosophically and culturally.

It's very clear Somtow suffers, personally, from a lack of focused values. He can barely work out whether he is Thai (or even what kind of Thai - rightwing demagogue or pseudo hiso liberal), American or whatever.

Instead of attempting to protect even the most basic human rights of other Thais - to life, to freedom of expression, to equality - instead Somtow attacks Dan Rivers. For being racist.

It's so absurd and revolting that Somtow's credibility as a worthwhile thinker needs to struck down.

He is, in short, an apologist for a massacre.

And by doing so has blood on his hands.

But hey, maybe I'm being racist?

The ultimate conclusion of Somtow's twisted thinking is that everyone should just respect massacres, genocide, female genital mutilation, the Taliban throwing acid in schoolgirls' faces, death squads in Central America, Apartheid etc because no-one, ultimately, can understand anyone else's culture. And if you comment on it you are being racist.

What say you Somtow? Where do you stand on the Taliban throwing acid in schoolgirls' faces? I mean, you've put yourself in the position where if you say that is wrong you're being racist.

Back to the racism issue - right wing Thais are in...

2010-05-21T14:55:58.538+07:00

Back to the racism issue - right wing Thais are incredibly racist to Indians, Burmese, Cambodians yet, for some bizarre and obscure reason, because you have some chip on your shoulder that your hiso status meant nothing in the USA, you conclude that Westerners are racist when they criticise the Thai army using sniper squads to issue headshots to unarmed Thai civilians.

You sir are a dissembling, discredited charlatan.

It looks to me like, as ever, people read what the...

2010-05-21T14:47:52.216+07:00

It looks to me like, as ever, people read what they want to read (etc.) and pick the fights that they are itching to pick.

One of your detractors called you a "moral relativist". Not having "got" that from the first read, I went back and read again. It looks like he or she built up a straw man to tear down. Not that your greatest fans seem to read you any more carefully either.

What it seems you are doing here is attempting to engage in a genuine dialogue -- one that really needs to be had. I come from a culture that values dialogue (from Plato onward) -- not that we're very good at it. But it is patently silly not to recognize that Thailand's traditions aren't the same as mine. Nor do they significantly share in the so-called "western" ideal of egalitarianism -- not that we're very good at that either.

Acknowledging that "traditions" aren't real people, I would hope it is fair to say that there are actual real people in both cultures that seem to differ most in their approach to "respecting human dignity": The westerner struggles toward the ideal of egalitarianism, the easterner struggles away from Brahmanism. But it appears to me anyway that they are both going in the same direction. A genuine dialogue (not a heated debate) might bear something like that out.

However, there is a unique obstacle to dialogue here: Real people who are poor in Thailand have voices of less value. I believe I am describing a system called "sakdina" -- do correct me if I am wrong. A dialogue is necessarily between equals. I wonder where most "westerners" fit in that system.

Out of curiosity, Mr. Somtow, is your detractor above correct? Do you not believe in a universal ethics?

When I started reading this piece I thought you we...

2010-05-21T12:50:21.946+07:00

When I started reading this piece I thought you were being naive. Now that I'm finished reading it, I can't even give you that. If people were to use just your "information" before writing their reports, they will be as biased as Dan Rivers except at the other end of the spectrum. All of the items you mentioned are either wrong or devoid of the larger context. To mention just 3:

- the new constitution may have more checks and balances but what did it loose?;

- the coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government. Sure but there is a clear link between them

- -- this country already has democracy. Are you serious? Where are the democratic institutions? Why there is no separation between the government and the army? Why every time there has been a problem with a government the solution has been to reach for external institutions mainly the military

Perhaps YOU should start getting your information right before preaching to others

Dear Khun Somtow, Thanks for taking the time to a...

2010-05-21T12:25:41.443+07:00

Dear Khun Somtow,

Thanks for taking the time to address these comments.

I can see your point on the 'unbreachable gap between rich and poor'. My mom who is in her 70's still has that mentality of peasantry and patronage, although she is full of kindness. I however constantly feel the urge to go out and champion a people's revolution where every person is given equal opportunity to quality education and infrastructure, so that the poor can understand that they can empower themselves in ways other than associating themselves with the rich and powerful by serving them on their knees.

Back to our subject, I can see this psychological drive to breach the social classes affecting the lower-middle class and above now, but I definitely can't see it in the poor. When I say poor, I mean blue-collar workers like construction workers, farmers, street vendors, motorbike drivers, laborers, etc... My assumption is that they realize their future is pretty bleak no matter how hard they work, which is why when the Red Shirt leaders show any semblance of light for them, they follow. I agree that there is a growing middle class, but I think the poor especially the rural poor (if not the rural community altogether) are still very much controlled by this dated elite/peasantry/patronage mindset.

I was born in the late 70's so I'm not in position to make an assessment on this, but I also feel that it was easier for my parents generation to 'make it' up the income ladder. Maybe it was because back then we lived in an agrarian or industrial society, so people pretty much started on the same competitive footing (unless you were an elite/royalty of course), whereas in today's age, if you're not part of the information revolution or already sitting on piles on cash, you're kind of stuck. I hear stories of how friends' parents started by selling noodles or fruit then progressed to own stable businesses with steady cash flows. I can't imagine that happening today.

Forgive me for harping on this point and straying off the initial subject of foreign media bias. I just feel very strongly about this inequality in our society and believe it to be the root cause of the mess that Thailand is in today. It should be clearly and openly acknowledged, and implying that the situation now is better than what it was 20 years ago just doesn't help.

On a side note, I am one of your new readers, so please excuse me if I've missed an article where you have already addressed this issue. What would be really useful to us new fans are links to the old blog posts that you mentioned in this sentence "I discussed this issue a few weeks ago."

Many, many thanks.

So where do we go from here? History is not predic...

2010-05-21T10:51:11.370+07:00

So where do we go from here? History is not predictable but some knowledge of it opens the mind to possibilities, for better or worse. How about Italy 1945 after an even greater trauma? From Wikipedia:

Italian Republic (after 1945)

The First Republic (1946-1992)

In 1946, King Victor Emmanuel III's son, Umberto II, was forced to abdicate. Italy became a Republic after the result of a popular referendum held on June 2, 1946, a day celebrated since as Republic Day. This was the first election in Italy allowing women to vote.[50] The Republican Constitution was approved and came into force on January 1, 1948.

Under the Paris Peace Treaties of 1947, the eastern border area was annexed by Yugoslavia. In 1954, the free territory of Trieste was divided between Italy and Yugoslavia. In 1949, Italy became an ally of the United States, which helped to revive the Italian economy through the Marshall Plan. Moreover, Italy became a member of the European Economic Community, which later transformed into the European Union (EU). In 1950s and 1960s the country enjoyed prolonged economic growth.

Italy faced political instability in the 1970s, which ended in the 1980s. Known as the Years of Lead, this period was characterized by widespread social conflicts and terrorist acts carried out by extra-parliamentary movements. The assassination of the leader of the Christian Democracy (DC), Aldo Moro, led to the end of a "historic compromise" between the DC and the Communist Party (PCI). In the 1980s, for the first time, two governments were managed by a republican and a socialist (Bettino Craxi) rather than by a member of DC.

Keep up the good work, enjoy reading your articles...

2010-05-21T10:35:11.706+07:00

Keep up the good work, enjoy reading your articles.
The future looks pretty bleak though after all the burnin'& lootin'...

Finally, do yourself a favour, don't allow anonymous comments!

Thank you for your view of the situation in Thaila...

2010-05-21T04:31:44.824+07:00

Thank you for your view of the situation in Thailand. I am sympathic with the red shirts, but I'm not convinced they have taken the best road in their quest for change. The emails I have received from Thai friends in the middle-class indicate the rift between the classes has deepened. It is painful for me to see what is happening in the Thailand I love. I can only hope that things settle down soon. If not, everyone will suffer for a very long time.

I too think you're right about the racism, tho...

2010-05-21T01:53:52.546+07:00

I too think you're right about the racism, though "cultural elitism" might be a better term for the sub-clinical cases.

That said, the Thai government does need to a robust PR department, with no shortage of English-speaking, Western educated bilingual staff (don't ask me where to find these people, I don't know). NOT because Western opinion or culture or thinking is necessarily important if you're not a Westerner; but because Western media is, in its own special way, an international hazard (think in terms of risk management). Particularly hazardous is the English-speaking media (and here you see my own elitism creeping in: look, says I, even our media is more influential and therefore frightening and therefore important than other media).

Once an idea gets passed around, nobody can predict what might happen. Economies are sunk, international organizations cry out, celebrities shave their heads, peacekeepers are deployed, social structures are torn up by their roots and devoured by ravenous... well I won't dramatize but the point is that governments need some protections against hazardous circumstances, and international media attention falls into that category.

Why are you painting Thais as the victims of Weste...

2010-05-21T01:03:29.698+07:00

Why are you painting Thais as the victims of Western racism while Thais are murdering each other on the street?

Seems a bit of an odd line to take on all this.

Shouldn't you be more concerned with the very obvious Thai on Thai racism?

The hill peoples of N. Thailand are treated like dogs by wealthy rightwing Bangkok Thais - as are Isaan people.

As for Racism what do you think about the blatant ...

2010-05-21T01:00:38.161+07:00

As for Racism what do you think about the blatant racism directed at central Thais towards Isaan people?

Why are you only allowing positive comments on this blog? Seems that you can't take an argument.

This blog is just the biggest pile of morally rela...

2010-05-21T00:58:06.870+07:00

This blog is just the biggest pile of morally relativist rubbish this side of the Iraq War. The ideas and intellectual reasoning are inconsistent, incoherent and based in nothing more than this self-constructed pseudo intellectuals mis-interpretations. Som Tow you have acquired the status of the Fukiyama of the Thai blogging world. Well done.

For a start there is NOTHING at all factual in this blog.

Dan Rivers had ON FILM Thai soldiers MURDERING people. ON. FILM.

Dan didn't theorise those deaths on a blog while sitting at his PC in N. Thailand.

He went out with his film crew onto the streets and filmed it.

This "he is foreigner he doesn't understand Thailand" line is as spurious as it is idiotic.

The upshot of this blog is that only Thais can make a call on what Thais do to each other or how they are perceived.

The other upshot is that only those foreigners who accept the dominant representation of Thailand understand it.

Now, I know plenty of Thais who don't get it.

100 of 1000s of them.

Like it or not, agree with them or not, those Thais don't buy the dominant line on what is Thai. In fact, they LOATHE it.

And as for your spurious appalling moral relativism - what say you about Apartheid? The Holocaust? Iran? China? Anywhere else in the world?

Or, are you going to argue that to comment on those things is wrong and racist?

And as 60 Thai citizens lie dead on the streets of Bangkok your chosen blog subject is.... Dan Rivers.

Pathetic.

Hope you enjoyed the massacre as much as your cheerleaders did.

So, what should the Thai government do now? I ask ...

2010-05-21T00:06:18.664+07:00

So, what should the Thai government do now? I ask in light of your observation that the unrest is about the rise of the middle class.

Andrew have another read of Mr Somtow's commen...

2010-05-21T00:05:06.265+07:00

Andrew have another read of Mr Somtow's comment above yours. The West does not have the monopoly on racism and ignorance.

How about spending a couple of minutes doing a meditation on the similarities of all humans, hair on the head (maybe), hair on the body, nails, teeth and skin